Bacon: Oh, good. Sorry.
Potts: Yeah, just to jump in real quick and say that it wasn’t even just their base—like, there were a fair number of independents ready to blame Trump for everything that was going on, which could have really, like, fueled the fire for support for Democrats in 2026.
And so I think that, yeah, I think you’re totally right there. Again…
Bacon: Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, Alex.
Shephard: Oh no, I was gonna say, just to build off a point I think I made, you know, late in the evening on election night, is that what the lesson here is, is a party that remains profoundly uncomfortable with politics, right?
They do not like doing politics. They especially don’t like holding political positions if they are not ones that they intrinsically hold. And I think that that’s the dynamic right now that sort of defines where we are, is that the party’s base is deeply politically engaged and they want their party to do politics, and the people that are in the position to do that are unwilling to do it.
Bacon: Monica, what is this… let’s assume this shutdown is gonna end in the next few days—I think it’s probably likely. What did this shutdown—we’ve got, this is one of the, I think, the longest, one of the longest governments we’ve had in a long time, or ever. What’s the meaning of this shutdown long-term?
If it ends Wednesday or the end of the week?
Potts: Well, I think that it shows the Republicans that Democrats can have a winning political position, but they don’t have the political will, as Alex says, to really enact it and to, like, stand up for it. And they’re uncomfortable with politics, you know.
The saying, you know, when they go low, we go high—well, it’s like, well, somebody has to get down in the mud and sling some dirt. Somebody has to fight real hard, you know?
And so, you know, the Democratic Party isn’t gonna do that as a party, even if some members are pushing for it. And even if they have the public on their side. I think it shows Trump that he can continue to kind of roll over Democrats and do what he wants.
I think it shows Democrats that they don’t have a unified caucus in the Senate, and that moderates will bail on them whenever they feel like the pressure gets too high ‘cause they can’t take it.
And I think that it shows the American public—and especially the Democratic base—that Democrats aren’t gonna stand up and fight when really push comes to shove, that really bad things could be happening and Democrats aren’t gonna present a unified front to kind of draw a line in the sand.
Bacon: And Alex, can you hear me? Alex?
Shephard: Sorry. Sorry. My internet cut out.
Bacon: That’s okay. I wanna finish by asking about Alex with this great piece. Are you still here, Alex?
Shephard: Yeah.
Bacon: Alex wrote this great piece just describing essentially the Democrats having their Tea Party moment—meaning that there’s this big disconnect between the base and the leadership that was similar to the 2010 to ’14 period where the Republicans struggled to have leaders in charge, ’cause the base wanted to be more aggressive.
Where does this take us now? Like, that was—that piece, I thought, was prescient before, but now you have a second capitulation on some level. But you also had—I think the party leadership would say—Abigail Spanberger and Mikie Sherrill, the quintessential generic Democrats, won.
Is there really a Tea Party, or are we just one party that hates Trump and we’re unified? So where do you see the Democratic Tea Party idea a week after the elections, but also this capitulation?
Shephard: Yeah, I mean, I think—so we’ve been in this kind of different position since the shutdown began. So I think I got a little out in front of things when I wrote that piece because we were in the one part of this term where the Democratic base was largely aligned with their leaders.
And that anger toward Schumer and Jeffries, although it was still very much deserved during that period, had kind of faded a little bit. And now it’s not only back, but it’s bigger than it was before. And it’s a huge difference from where we were this time in Trump’s term—at any point in Trump’s term—where essentially Democrats were arguing for norms, right? A return to normalcy.
They wanted a party that was, you know, standing up to Trump, but mostly they were just saying, look, you know, Nancy Pelosi was a hero, and she should be, because she is the best House Speaker of a very long time. She’s the best House Speaker in a very long time because she knows that the purpose of having power is to use it.
And I think what we’re seeing here now is that Democrats want their party to have a plan for when they retake power. They want them to do things—and they are not doing that now. I think that they will not be able to blame the people that voted for this, because for the most part they are all kind of insulated from near-term consequences.
And I think if we’re thinking about this electorally, it’s probably the wrong rubric. I don’t think that this matters for, like, the broader Democratic midterm prospects—but where it does matter, is…
Bacon: I mean, if it helps Graham Platner or, uh, El-Sayed, or does it help the progressive candidate if you’re the endorsed-by-fewer person? It probably doesn’t help that much that he’s now even more embattled.
Shephard: Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly where I was going. So I think that if you’re—I think where it matters is in the primaries, right? And I think that there are candidates who have understood that—like Pla being one of the great examples—that understand the anger at the grassroots level and at the base, and that they are going to capitalize here.
And I don’t think that Democratic leaders realize this, right? This is very bad for Janet Mills, and I think that even though she came out very strongly against this, she—you know—she’s Schumer’s candidate, right? And the anger here is that Schumer and people are gonna want candidates that go against it.
Although, interestingly, the El-Sayed thing that is funny is that one of his first moves politically was to say that he, you know, thinks that Schumer should remain Democratic leader. But nevertheless, I think that that’s gonna be the dynamic that’s gonna define the next, you know, six to eight months.
Bacon: Alright. Good. guys, thanks for joining me. This was a great conversation. Good to see you.