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Right. And so if we’re in this united front and there’s different factions and there’s somebody on fire, and one of the factions, you give them the rock. And if the main objective is to defeat fascism, and I didn’t see that type of play with many of these folks. And to me, I think the best, the best victory… the best way to challenge them is through victory, right?

Like, I don’t think the best way to challenge them is through, you know, op-eds in The New York Times or the New York Post, and, like, engaging in these elite opinion wars. It’s by making sure that those voters turn out based on our strategy, which is what happened yesterday. So, you know, to people who are frustrated with, you know, those folks, I completely identify with that frustration, and I channel it into organizing.

The best way to defeat them is by defeating them with the people, and by demonstrating that there’s an appetite for our strategy. And that’s how we show that we should lead. And I think, like, at the end of the day, when Zohran won in June, a lot of Democratic Party strategists—they ripped up their playbook, and they started focusing on affordability.

So whether or not they like Zohran, or they wanna be associated with Zohran, they’re running the Zohran playbook.

Bacon: Okay, you know, Brandon Johnson won election a few years ago. I was excited about that, and you all supported him in Chicago. I think it’s fair to say that, you know, he’s faced a lot of resistance from the establishment there—from the corporations, from the media there, from sometimes Democrats themselves.

His approval rating is quite low right now—that’s unfortunate. He’d have a hard time winning reelection right now. So how—I’m not, again, I will support Brandon, I think he tried his best—but how do, what can people, what can Zohran do, and what can the movement do, to avoid a, you know, to have a better situation than what happened in Chicago?

Mitchell: Well, one thing I wanna say about Brandon is that in this particular moment, he’s demonstrating…

Bacon: That’s true. That’s a good point.

Mitchell: Like, in this particular moment, he is demonstrating why we were so proud to elect him to begin with, and he is beginning to build and rebuild a coalition that is strongly behind his leadership—against Trump and ICE and everything else.

I just wanna say that, you know, we’re seeing fighting Brandon right when we need him, and we’re really excited about that. But what I would say is, like, I think ultimately the lesson—I mean, you talked about it—in every one of these major cities, we do not have a neutral or curious press corps.

Right. We have, in-the-tank-for-capital, right, who have already written the headlines about the, you know, folly of progressive governance. That’s just the reality. And so what I feel like we continue to learn is that we need to tell the story often, we need to tell the story forcefully, and we can’t allow the mediating factor of that press corps and the major papers to be the folks who write the story.

And, like, I think Zohran being an excellent communicator and leveraging social media so effectively, so early, was a way to get a jump on the traditional media—and the fact that, you know, initially Zohran was not considered serious news for a lot of them.

And so he was able to define himself before they were able to define him, and I think we’re gonna continue to lean into that. Like, at the end of the day, the propaganda war is the front of the war that defines you. And being relentless in that, I think, is gonna be critical—not just in defining him as a candidate, but in defining the governing project.

Bacon: And again, I think I said the three last questions will be about what’s happening in Maine—which, a treat question, is like, I think on the one hand, he is—Platner, I would argue—is doing some of the talking about real concerns. The crowds are real. I’ve not been up there yet but my reporter friends tell me there are a ton of people there. They are all ages. Maine is mostly white, but demographically diverse otherwise.

And so, on the other hand, I don’t wanna fall into this trap of, like, we have to chase white men and that means Nazi tattoos are okay. Or, what have you—or like, saying racist stuff is okay, or saying Black people don’t tip, or all that.

He’s apologized for these comments, but these are not great comments. So where do you—without getting into, like, Platner too much—where are we in, are you, where do you see kinda where we are beyond Mamdani, in terms of, like, you know, does the party—is the party appreciating difference among its candidates, and how should that look?

Mitchell: Look, again, I build the Working Families Party, right? But what I see in the Democratic Party is a party that is, in some ways, deeply conflicted—right?—deeply conflicted about, and maybe at some point slightly ambivalent about, whether or not it is the job of political parties to seek to win.

Right. If they’re interested in focusing on what is clearly the clear opening for them as a party—which is to be the party that is in opposition to MAGA, but also is deeply connected to and willing to throw elbows for the working class—right? It seems unclear if that’s the party that they wanna be, and there’s a lot of conflict around that.

And, you know, I can’t speak to Platner—like, we don’t have a presence in Maine, we haven’t, you know, endorsed in that race, we may or may not. But I can say that, I can declare, yes, that Nazi tattoos are bad, right? And saying racist things is bad. Also, it’s true that people have stories, and people have pasts, and, you know, like, people are complicated.

I don’t think we should be chasing anybody. And there’s a reason why he’s commanding all of those crowds.

Bacon: What do you think that reason is? Because…

Mitchell: Look, I travel all across the country. The stuff that I used to obsess about is just plain as day to most people. Most people see that there is one party that they think is crazy. Most people who aren’t, like, fanatical Trump people think Trump is either a lot or a little crazy, and the Republican Party is a lot or a little crazy—like, most people believe that.

And I actually think that that’s true. And most people think that the Democratic Party are weak, are status quo, and aren’t willing to fight for very much. Like, most people—even people who are Democrats—kind of believe that to be true. And when faced with those as the only two options, that could either bring people to cynicism—bring people—or bring people to at least where the energy is. And the movement energy, unfortunately, is with—with… right?

But there’s this third space that people are hungry for, because it’s not like either of those two options are exciting to people who are not fanatical Trump people. The third space is the space that is clearly the space of the non–status quo, insurgent energy—which could, which could be articulated in so many ways—but people just wanna know: are you on the take? Or, like, are you accepting all of this corporate PAC money or not? Right?

Like, I don’t know if you saw, like, Senator Cory Booker, like, got all these questions around him taking, like, AIPAC money, and, like, he just…

Bacon: On that podcast. I like Cory, but he not handle it particularly well.

Mitchell: Yeah. People just wanna know, like, are—people wanna know, like, are you on the take? Like, are you taking this corporate money or not? Are you gonna fight for me? Are you gonna stand up against the status quo and all the oligarchs? And, like, do you have a one-word answer to all these questions or not?

And the people that are able to have one-word answers to those questions—and also are able to communicate those in ways that are authentic—are able to command those crowds, and are being rewarded in this moment where people want fighters. But it’s like the fighting needs to make sense.

Right. And, and it can’t just be performative, right? And you have to be willing to throw elbows against the establishment and the right wing. But sometimes—oftentimes for us—the establishment in the Democratic Party. And those folks that are willing to do that, I think, are being able to tap into that groundswell of energy that’s happening in the grassroots.

And I think he’s been really effective at doing that. I think that’s why you’re seeing those crowds.

Bacon: Maurice Mitchell, congratulations on last night and thanks for joining me.

Mitchell: Thank you.