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This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email transcripts@nytimes.com with any questions. [MUSIC PLAYING]

The stakes of this election could not be more serious. But at the same time in this match-up of two very old, largely unpopular candidates, there is no shortage of material for comedians. This may be bad news for the country. However, it’s good news for the White House Correspondents’ Dinner, the Super Bowl of political comedy, held this Saturday in Washington, DC.

Typically, the president attends the dinner and delivers a speech underscoring the values of the First Amendment while also trying his hand at some jokes. But the headline act is a set from a famous comedian, like Jon Stewart in 1997 or Wanda Sykes in 2009.

Last year, the comedian was Roy Wood Jr., a veteran of “The Daily Show” on Comedy Central —

— who killed it —

— and pulled no punches in the process —

— taking on Supreme Court justices —

— the former president —

— and even President Biden, while he was sitting right there. So as another Correspondents’ Dinner approaches, I wanted to talk with Roy Wood Jr. about the gig, how political comedy has changed, and this election, in general. What’s it like roasting the president to his face, and what is there to laugh about in an election that doesn’t seem funny at all? From “The New York Times,” I’m Astead Herndon. This is “The Run-Up.”

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Can you first just introduce yourself and tell me what you do.

My name is Roy Wood Jr. I’m an Emmy-nominated documentary producer and comedian and, I guess, now an author, once this book comes out at the —

Which one of those titles is your favorite?

Comedian, because that’s the one nobody can take from me.

I guess I wanted to start with the Correspondents’ Dinner. Can you tell me about what that was like to host and what your process was to do something that, I think, is so unique, not only to tell jokes in that space but with the president sitting right next to you.

It was fun after the fact.

[LAUGHS]: Was it just nerve-racking going into it?

Yeah. Yeah. It’s probably — second only to “Showtime at the Apollo,” probably the most stressed I’ve been leading up to a gig.

I like that “Showtime” comes before the president.

Absolutely. Because “Showtime at the Apollo” is Black people.

Yeah, a Black thing. [LAUGHS]

And that’s far worse.

Like, that’ll actually hurt my feelings.

Yeah, a journalist will just stare. Black people will actively boo and attack your soul.

Really.

It’ll make you better in the long run. But that —

100 percent, 100 percent. I feel that. Even the stories about Black folks, I’m like, the stress level is a little high.

But when I did “Showtime at the Apollo,” that was nerve-racking. But I think that was ‘02. So then it’s like, fast forward 20 years later. It’s like, oh, I still don’t know how to do this job. The most difficult thing that, I think, comedians deal with now with the Correspondents’ Dinner, the news changes so frequently now, and what people care to talk about changes so fast.

It is probably, to me — the Correspondents’ Dinner is easily one of the singular events in stand-up comedy that is truly reflective of where we are as a country at that exact moment. And it is probably the most curated comedic meal that can be presented, next to a comedian performing live-live on television.

Interesting. I remember some of the jokes you made. And we actually talked to Democratic strategist Jim Messina. And he was telling us that he actually thinks it’s core to the election, that Joe Biden helps defuse his age issue with jokes. And I was wondering, for your perspective, how did you think about Biden and age going into that speech and, also, if you have any take on that opinion, the angst of an 82-year-old president — 81 right now — can be lessened if he’s joking about it?

I think anything can be lessened with a joke. That’s what Trump has done. Trump blows it off or tells you why it’s not important, but he doesn’t ignore it. I don’t think you can ignore anything that the American people are bringing to you.

We chose not to really lean in on Biden’s age. I think we had one or two age jokes, but we ended up dropping them because Biden went up before me, and he had — I can’t even remember, man, but he had a heater about him and Rupert Murdoch.

And so Biden, in a way, kind of “Eight Miled” me and took what I was gonna say about him and used it against himself, so I couldn’t even use — so that’s the other thing about the Correspondents’ Dinner. While Biden is talking, I’m texting with the writers in the room.

OK, you’re editing.

Oh, we’re changing jokes in the moment. When he did that joke, I was like, OK, the Biden old joke I have — I don’t even remember what it was — but it was like, no. Because it’s not as good. And he’s already called himself old. So fine. But I think this idea of trying to hide from the thing that people are showing concern about, it only makes people more concerned. So you just have to attack it head-on. I think that’s why I like, even with his State of the Union address, most people were just watching to see if he was going to stutter or slur.

Absolutely. It was such a funny energy. Because people’s expectations going in, I was like, everyone’s just here to see if he’s gonna collapse on stage or not.

Wasn’t it — no one — all the reports the next day was just like, man, he made it. What did he say? What was the policy? I dunno. But he did it.

I don’t know. And everybody was like, yo, he had so much vigor and life. And I do my cable news stuff. And it was so interesting because I’m like we are not even talking about what the man said. This was all about —

At all — at all.

It does raise a couple interesting questions for us. I had heard that you had a Biden joke that you didn’t tell at the Correspondents’ Dinner. I wondered if you could tell us jokes that you think were good that you didn’t get the chance to say?

That was — I do remember having a couple jokes about the fact that Joe Biden got the Black vote in spite of owning a German shepherd.

[LAUGHS]: The coppiest dog.

Yeah. As much as we know about the German shepherd and what the German shepherd has done to the Black race —

And also the aggressive German shepherd. His German shepherd is busy biting people left and right.

Yeah. That dog bite everybody. Du-du-du-du-du. Stand by. I know times are changing. Paramount is selling BET, and no white people bid on it. That’s how you know media’s in a bad place. White people don’t want to own Black people anymore.

Was that one you said or was that one you didn’t?

No, I didn’t. I did a version of it. But that’s what I mean. Certain things you just go back and look at them, and you just go, ah, it’s too — the Harris-Biden 2024 slogan was still the least racist option.

[LAUGHS]:: We actually talked to Ron Klain, Biden’s former chief of staff, who said that one of his strengths against Donald Trump is that Donald Trump cannot exoticize Joe Biden, that Joe Biden, because he has this kind of Scranton Joe frame, that it’s hard for people to think of him as a caricature.

Do you think that’s true? One question I had is, is that still true? Or is Joe Biden currently a caricature of an old man? It used to be Scranton Joe. It feels a little different now.

I think the issue in the conversation with age and trying to avoid that is that the conversation was lost on some policy and stuff that they may have actually gotten accomplished. And I think, ultimately, that’s the thing.

But in America, if we’re talking politics, all you’re voting for is something that looks familiar to you.

Does this thing look like something I already recognize? Because we’re not taking chances on anything new at any given time.

Now that we’re in the spring of 2024, just seven months out from a Trump-Biden general election rematch, I wanted to ask more broadly, how does political comedy feel right now?

It feels fine to me. I think it’s more it doesn’t feel as broad as it used to be. I think audiences are more entrenched in their own beliefs. And I think that they’re looking for what I like to call confirmation humor — we talk about confirmation bias or whatever, but the idea that I want to laugh at things that are rooted in premises that I already agree with. And that’s more fun and entertaining. versus being challenged.

You feel that’s happening more now?

Yeah. I feel like if comedy is rooted in something you don’t believe, then you’re going to reject everything. If you don’t agree with the premise, you’re not going to agree with the punch line. You’re not going to laugh at the punch line.

Yeah. It ain’t funny.

Yes.

When did you feel that shift most tangibly? When did it become clear that audiences were expecting different things from comedians?

Trump. Somewhere around that Women’s March is where I think there was a lot of entrenching — Women’s March, Muslim ban, kids in cages. That was a nice trifecta of who you with, you know what I mean?

Like, really, what are you aligning yourself with, and the idea that there can’t be this criticism of — like, if you did a joke and you said, Obama expelled — or not expelled, what are we, in school?— if you did a joke as a liberal comedian and you said Obama deported as many immigrants, as many illegals, as Trump did, then that premise, well, right there, it feels anti-Obama, so you’re gonna draw —

The tensing from Democrats.

Yeah. So this idea of the times and the stakes are too critical politically to be splitting hairs and going, well, they’re doing that, and you’re doing this. And I think that when the stakes in the country really started getting more serious, politically speaking, I think that one side’s ability to laugh at something that they may not agree with started to dissipate.

Interesting. I could see that, yeah.

Because that joke, even if it’s true in the greater scheme of what you may believe politically, I deem it problematic. Now is not the time for that. And this is saying — like, if you look back when Jon Stewart premiered —

I see what you’re saying.

— it was the Trump’s old, Biden’s old. And everybody was like, now is not the time to bring up age. And that’s rooted in the stakes. That’s the only reason. Because we’ve called presidents old before.

And Biden’s, objectively, old. They’re both, objectively, old.

We called Bob Dole old. And granted, he was running against differing — younger, more youthful, Republicans and Democrats. But the idea of a president being called too old is not new. But at this current state of society that we’re in, I think that, as the plausible became policy, that’s when it really, I think, that’s when, I think, the way people receive humor, political humor, I think it changed.

And to me, once you get kids in cages, and when you look at the Women’s March and you look at where we are now with laws, you gotta say, the women were kind of right to be marching. The plausible became policy. It is still — and that’s not even bringing up police reform and George Floyd and military. So I think that’s where it ain’t funny to a lot of people.

You’re identifying one change that has taken place from 2018, how the Trump era has changed political comedy. One thing that we come up against now is how, in this election, specifically, people want to tune a lot of stuff out. They’re not really in that same level of engagement as I think folks were in the 2017, in the 2018, time that you’re talking about.

How do you find comedy for this moment, when it does feel like people’s willingness to engage, or even think about candidates who they find really familiar, frankly, wanted other options for — we keep running into people who want to block it all out. How do you make jokes for that moment?

I think you just have to acknowledge truth. I think the best comedians are just acknowledging what’s already happening, what’s already going on in the room, and just speaking the unspoken, or just speaking what is already universally known. I think we also have to stop looking at comedy as some sort of catalyst for change and activism and awakening people.

Interesting. Because I sometimes hear people describe —

OK. It might be for certain people who receive it. But you have to respect that most comedians, that’s not their goal. That’s the goal of an activist. Activists activate. Comedian do comedy. So I think that, within the comedy, there can be things that help to get people to give a damn about voting or give a damn about, this election is the one.

So when you’re looking at trying to do jokes about something that people aren’t really excited about, to me, the jokes would be rooted in the fact that nobody’s excited.

Right. You just say what it is.

And then you have to figure out what the jokes are about that. And so maybe through that, if someone goes, oh, wow, you see me, and I understand you understand what I’m thinking right now. And then, on the back side of that, if I want to go, but here’s why you should still go and vote — to me, it’s state and local.

We use all of these federal and national elections. And it’s just, I’m not going to the polls at all. Why? Because you’re not excited about two old dudes? OK, fine. But also, on that ballot, dummy, was 40 other things that actually affect where you live.

That’s why you should be showing up. That’s what you should give a damn about. But state and local isn’t covered as wide. It isn’t given as much attention. And unfortunately, in a lot of instances, those are the cases that really do change a place.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

After the break, more about Roy’s life and career and how he thinks about one of the central characters of this year’s political comedy, Donald Trump.

Besides his history in comedy, there’s another reason I wanted to talk with Roy Wood Jr. Roy comes from a journalism family.

My degree is in broadcast. And I come from a family of journalists. My father was a radio news journalist for many, many decades, covering innumerable conflicts. I have two brothers who anchor, report, newsdesk, EP — every job within a TV station.

And he got his start at a local radio station while attending Florida A&M University, the Historically Black College in Tallahassee.

So I ride my bike up to the station. I asked Buddy, just straight-up asked him, hey, man. Look, y’all don’t have no news. Can I come in here and do news twice an hour? I’ll do three local stories — three national, two local, and a kicker. The brother hires me to do that.

They have a co-host who is a comedian who’s also a schoolteacher who has to leave every day at 8:00 AM. Some days I didn’t have class till 11:00. So I would just stay at the radio station until 10:00. And over the course of a couple of months, they started letting me co-host.

This eventually led to on-air gigs back in his hometown of Birmingham, Alabama, work that was deeply rooted in the Black community.

As the local station, you’re in the community. There was an incident in Birmingham one time where — and this is pre-Trayvon Martin — there was an incident in Birmingham one time where a number of police officers — we had a bunch of police officers shot in one day. I think it was four were shot, three died.

So we have the mayor on. We have the community on. this idea of understanding pain as a community but then also understanding the broken relationship between the Black community and the police department. And some of the calls that we took didn’t go the way you thought they would go after a bunch of police officers have been killed.

And it’s people trying to have the conversation about police corruption, and, while we’re talking about the police and what they do, let’s also talk about ways to improve. So then, it’s, oh, it ain’t time for that conversation. Well, when is the time?

And it’s Roy’s time in radio, spent understanding local issues, that he credits with shaping his unique approach to comedy today.

These nuanced discussions within the Black community were my regular, everyday occurrence. And that was the things that I had to prep for every day on air. So in between Ludacris songs and arguing whether or not Kim Kardashian should stay with Ray J — it was early, the rise of Kardashian — you have all of these other topics. And that’s, comedically, you write what you know. You joke what you care about. And those were the things I cared about. And so that’s where my comedy really started shifting from just being silly college kid that’s 19 to actually, oh, well, let’s talk a little bit about this particular issue, or let’s talk about standing for the anthem or not. And so that’s really how radio, local radio, really changed the things that I cared about because I saw the people who were being affected by things that aren’t changing.

Roy would eventually leave radio to become a full-time comic. And after nearly a decade as a correspondent on “The Daily Show,” he left in fall of 2023. But he’s still performing stand-up regularly, which, of course, means closely following how the 2024 election is playing out.

The last thing I wanted to talk about is Donald Trump. I remember being in DC once. And Donald Trump was giving a speech to the Republican caucus. This is while he was president. And he walks into the Capitol Hill. And the first thing he said was, to be honest with y’all, I like only 30 percent of you. And I started cracking up.

And it made me — in one of those moments, I realized, he is funny. And he says these things that are not — he’s very unintentionally funny. I think Joe Biden’s funny in a different way. But Trump has this unique brand of humor. I guess, is it uncomfortable to say that?

What’s unique about it, though? He’s what you know all the time. It’s relatable. Ain’t nothing unique about Donald Trump. We all know a guy like Trump — talk crazy, say whatever. You know he full of it. But man, he’s fun to be around. He’s the dude — if Trump was Black, he would be the guy in the barber shop, in the Black barber shop, who just never gets a haircut.

Never stops talking.

Just talking the whole time. What do you do for a living? I don’t know. Where do you get your money? I don’t know.

When I was in the barber shop two weeks ago, I was like, does this man have a job? I have been here for three — I’ve been waiting for three cuts, and he’s still here, talking.

Yeah. And then you ask him, man, whatever happened with that court case? Ah, don’t worry about that. It’s a witch hunt.

I do think saying Donald Trump is funny, for a lot of people, does minimize said seriousness. He’s also the most joked-about person. How do you tell jokes about Donald Trump without it feeling so familiar?

Because jokes used to be a form of throwing a rock at the establishment. But now Trump catches your rock and goes, thank you, and then adds it to his bag of rocks —

That’s a good way to put it.

— and then shows it to all of his followers and goes, look at all these rocks they threw at me. These people, they don’t want me, and I’m here for you. And I’m taking these rocks for you, so vote for me. I think when we —

Does that make you want to avoid talking about him?

Me? No. But I try to keep my conversations on policy instead of the person. People change, but the same injustices are always there, no matter. It’s a rotating chair of who to throw the rock at. But I think one of the issues, what Trump figured out, is that people care more about being entertained than governed. So if you can entertain people, then they won’t be paying as much attention when you’re passing policies that aren’t in their best interests.

And so Trump out-entertains most people, almost out-entertained Biden in 2020. He did out entertain. Policy one, you had enough centrist Republicans who were like, ah, I’ll vote for Biden this time. This guy scares me. Trump entertains regular people but probably scares the hell out of really rich and powerful people. Because he’s a loose cannon, and they can’t fully tell whether or not he’s one of them, in terms of sanity and actual money.

How do you, then, communicate the stakes of a serious thing because he’s leaning so much into entertainment? But at the same time, Donald Trump is promising the mass deportation effort, installed judges that vote in his favor. All of those things he’s very explicitly promising this time.

He did. Some of it, he’s already —

He did it, some of it, before. But I’m saying this time, it feels even more clear, the promise to upend. Is that something that — I know I sound kind of like those people in the crowd now — but is that something to joke about?

How else can I get people to listen, though? And I think that’s what we’re — those are the only two things we’re armed with is either laughs or yelling. Hey, you got to pay attention to this versus, hey, y’all hear this man said that he gonna deport everybody? All right, well, then — it’s like the old George Lopez joke. You gonna deport everybody? OK, well, then who’s gonna build your wall?

Well, that’s a joke. But rooted in that is actual, no, we need immigrants because immigrants come over, and they do a bunch of work that Americans don’t want to do. That’s a deeper point George Lopez is making, more concisely and quickly.

So you take something like that, that’s an easier way to get people to understand. Because most people just think Americans, they’re tired of getting yelled at — so much yelling.

Do you think Democrats, or folks running against Trump, have understood his power as a comic?

They understand it, but they can’t mimic it. If they could, they would have. Who in the Democratic Party is as reckless and entertaining to Democrats in any type of way? Also, because the Democratic party is also seen as the party that’s more regal and put together and buttoned down, and this is the right way that you do politics.

I’m trying to think of who’s the funniest Democrat.

If you just booked a comedy show, I don’t know of any Democrat, joke for joke.

I don’t know.

I don’t even know, on an undercard, if there’s a Democrat that I could even put up against RFK.

Have you looked at any of the Conservative comedians? I remember Gutfeld, or whatever, who has a huge program now. I have tried to watch that show, just for my understanding of conservatives. And it feels confirmation humor.

Mostly, it is confirmation. We’re already existing. And this is the truth. This is our truth. Let’s joke from these truths. So if you already believe these truths, Gutfeld’s hilarious. And there’s a lot of people who believe those truths.

So I don’t — why would I — and then this goes back to the liberal side — why would I propose that maybe Democrats do have a fair point here and then do a joke about that if that’s just going to piss people off, and the ratings are going to dip? But then they’ll make the same argument about John Oliver —

They will.

— or “Daily Show” in the sense that, oh, it’s preaching to your own choir. It’s all home-team humor. And that’s fine. I don’t necessarily agree with that on either of those programs, but that’s the accusation that could be made. Because most people that watch Gutfeld, I guarantee they’re not watching any of the other liberal comedy shows. I would imagine that the overlap of who watches “Daily Show” and “Gutfeld,” I would love to see who that person is.

Yeah. I want to meet that person, for sure. I watch “The Daily Show.” I like “Colbert Report.” But one thing I remember, and I think it informed some of the journalism work we did, is I do think that Obama-era time spent a lot of time making fun of people who were gaining power at that same time — the jokes about Tea Party as they were winning, the dismissal of Trump as he was ascending. Do you look back and you think that any of that political humor minimized a growth that was happening politically?

I think that people who were joked about on the right were able to weaponize those attacks into campaign support. I don’t think you have Trump without the Tea Party. I don’t think you have any of that without Sarah Palin. But then I’m not gonna turn around and say it’s Tina Fey’s fault that we have Donald Trump. It’s like the job of comedy is to comment on what is happening.

So be it as it may to go, well, maybe we shouldn’t joke about this because it will be weaponized somehow, I don’t know if any comedy show has ever thought about that or will ever take that into consideration before booking somebody. Are the people that are joked about able to still take those jokes and use them to influence a voter base? Absolutely. Absolutely.

There’s a reason that Nikki Haley will go on “Saturday Night Live.”

And there’s a reason “Saturday Night Live” will have Nikki Haley. And oh, that’s a great example of what I’m talking about, of where people who you watch —

People are upset.

Yeah. But you upset. “Saturday Night Live” ain’t never done but what they always do. That’s all they’ve ever done. They had Trump on. So you think they weren’t gonna have Haley on? This is the show.

Who’s making the news? You. Come be on our show because we joke about what’s happening right now. Don’t you know Nikki Haley? You’re normalizing her. Because now she’s grinning on TV. Yeah, but our show is to just entertain people.

I totally get that because I remember, in that moment, I’m like, well, if Nikki Haley can’t be on “SNL,” it’s hard for me to imagine the conservative that could. If that’s the line that folks want to draw, it is hard to imagine a person. And maybe that’s what all these people want is for those to be only spaces of people who they think agree with them.

Because you want “SNL” to be more than what it is, and it’s not. And it’s never going to be. So stop putting that at the feet of the show.

You mentioned Trump’s political power as a comedian. I’m also thinking about the objective numbers that tell us he’s still massively unpopular or that people still, for as much as they might be laughing, it hasn’t necessarily translated to mass appeal, particularly outside of the Republican base. What can his comedic power do, going ahead? I guess I want to just be more specific on, when you say Trump is funny, what do you think that means?

I think he’s entertaining like an old racist grandpa. But you wouldn’t let him drive you on the freeway.

[LAUGHS]:

And ultimately, the job of president is to drive the country. We are in the car with this person. And he can be entertaining. And he’s figured out a way to create the illusion that he knows what he’s doing. And there’s enough people that are angry enough that, just to be petty and contrarian, they will vote for him. It’s not so much I love Trump as much as I just hate Biden. I don’t like the Democrats. Democrats too buttoned up, something.

When I was in South Carolina, I saw Trump specifically make jokes about DeSantis. It was part of his strategy, in terms of minimizing him.

It’s been part of that type of calling card. At CPAC, we were talking to people who’ve been to 50 Trump rallies. They like the comedic stand-up routine that he goes through up there. It does feel like that has been such a part of his core connection with his own base.

If I was Joe Biden, I would hire stand-up comedians to punch up every speech and anything that I’m doing between now and November just to —

To match.

— just a little bit, jabs here and there. But it’s the debate that every Democrat is, even at the state and local level, to gain Republican voters, to gain the Republican centrist voter, you have to consider losing some of the more extreme liberals who may not agree with your approach. And so you have to be very careful about that. And I think humor is a more effective way.

But you just have to hope that all of these elections come down to policy. And that’s what it seems like right now. Because it’s just rooted in who has the policies that are going to change the things that I don’t like. And because the stakes are greater, and because certain things have been put in motion in the last eight years, I still hope that policy is the deciding factor and not who’s the more entertaining. Women are not messing around.

Because if it’s a battle of entertaining, Biden probably loses.

He, for sure, loses. But now do you want the funny guy that’s going to be in control of your uterus? Is that who you want? Or do you want the boring guy who’s gonna let you do what you want to do with your body?

Same game with everything that’s happening in Palestine and Israel. For a lot of people, this ain’t no joke. I need to know what your policies are. Yeah, that was a cute little joke there, president, but where do you stand on this thing?

Yeah. So you’re saying punch up the jokes at the same time of refocusing it on policy?

Yeah. And I think if you’re able to do that, then you’re in a place where you’re able to have some — part of what made Obama Obama was his ability to make complicated things plain. That’s the other thing is that politics is way too complicated. So whoever talks the dumbest probably is going to get a lot of the votes. Because, well, I ain’t got time for all these extra words and syllables, man. Just tell me what it is. Lock her up. All right, cool.

Like, thanks.

Meanwhile, Hillary’s going, you must understand the policy and the complicated measure and the — no! It’s too many words.

There’s a funny moment in Trump rallies where he clearly just lists off, like, five policies. But this is 10 seconds because he’s not here to talk about the policies. He’s only here to rile up the crowd in that type of way.

We still think that we live — Democrats still live in a world where they believe that being educated and well read is something to be revered and celebrated and appreciated for. And there is a faction in this country that rebelled against that and almost take it as an insult, and they feel talked down to.

Yeah. I tell this to people all the time, but there is a section of — I think I would put centrist liberals that really think they’re in debate class. And I’m like, if they just prove that they are right on a specific issue, then they win. And I’m like, I don’t know how the last six, eight years has not taught you that that is not the plane on which this is fought on — not exclusively.

Yeah. You’re trying to debate this person. And then they just reply, yeah, you’re a Little Marco. You’re like, what? Yeah. Nanny nanny boo boo, you Little Marco.

When I look ahead to this year, this election doesn’t seem funny at all. I get why people want to tune it out. I get why people — it feels super familiar. I get why it doesn’t inspire folks to be as plugged in as they were in the 2017 and 2018. But it also feels like that’s part of the lack of attention that’s being brought to it is the fact that it doesn’t feel like it has that sort of mass resonance. Do you think this election — am I just saying this too early, and some of this stuff will come around? Or is this election — will it be funny? Will it be fun? I have no idea.

I think this election’s going to be tense. I don’t think it’ll ever truly be resolved or recognized. I’m less concerned about this election and more concerned with what this election means for the future of politics in America and whether or not we can still have people that are a total farce attempting to be in the driver’s seat of our government.

Yeah. If Biden did — he listens to this podcast, he calls you up and says, OK, give me some jokes to add to my speech, you got anything?

Absolutely, I’m not available. I do not want the stress of writing the joke that makes people finally listen to some of your policy points.

[LAUGHS]: You say, good luck, Mr. President.

I am not going back to “The Apollo.” I did it.

No, thank you. I really appreciate your time.

But if the money’s right, give me a call.

You said, actually — the problem with government, it won’t be right.

Karine Jean-Pierre got my number. Hit me up.

Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. And I’m a big fan, so thanks for helping us out.

Hey, thank you.

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That’s “The Run-Up” for Thursday, April 25, 2024. Now the rundown. It’s week two of Donald Trump’s criminal trial in Manhattan, where he’s accused of falsifying business records to cover up an affair with adult film actress Stormy Daniels. On Wednesday morning, we caught up with our colleague Jonah Bromwich, who’s been in the courtroom each day this week. He says if you haven’t been following along closely so far —

As for Trump —

And here’s what comes next.

David Pecker will continue to testify on Thursday. He’ll pick right up. And then we’ll get more witnesses. We don’t know the order of the witnesses yet. We expect that Michael Cohen will testify. We have no sense of whether Trump will testify. Trump loves to defend himself, to speak up on his own behalf. He believes himself to be quite good at it. And I think, for people who are devoted to the former president, they see that as correct. They do trust and believe him. But testifying in this case would come with real, real risks for Trump. So whether he is going to testify or not will be an open question, I think, until we actually see him take the stand or decline to do so.

Meanwhile, on Tuesday —

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Joe Biden campaigned in Tampa.

His speech was focused on abortion —

— and on Donald Trump.

Also, the Pennsylvania primary was held on Tuesday. Donald Trump and Joe Biden both won handily. But —

In a warning sign for Republicans, more than 150,000 people in the state voted for Nikki Haley, who dropped out of the race more than a month ago. Also in Pennsylvania, progressive Congresswoman Summer Lee won her Democratic primary, fending off a moderate challenger. Lee has been a prominent critic of Israel’s military actions in Gaza, which was a central focus in the race. There are 81 days until the Republican National Convention, 116 days until the Democratic National Convention, and 194 days until the general election. See you next week.

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“The Run-Up” is reported by me, Astead Herndon, and produced by Elisa Gutierrez, Caitlin O’Keefe, and Anna Foley. It’s edited by Rachel Dry and Lisa Tobin, with original music by Dan Powell, Marion Lozano, Pat McCusker, Diane Wong, Sophia Lanman, and Elisheba Ittoop. It was mixed by Sophia Lanman and fact-checked by Caitlin Love. Special thanks to Paula Szuchman, Sam Dolnick, Larissa Anderson, David Halbfinger, Maddy Masiello, Mahima Chablani, Nick Pitman, and Jeffrey Miranda.

Do you have a question about the 2024 election? Email us at therunup@nytimes.com or, better yet, record your question using the voice memo app on your phone and then send us the file. The email, again, is therunup@nytimes.com. And finally, if you like the show and want to get updates on latest episodes, follow our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening, y’all.